{"id":67624,"date":"2024-12-26T17:02:34","date_gmt":"2024-12-26T15:02:34","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/espores.org\/?p=67624"},"modified":"2025-01-21T11:38:33","modified_gmt":"2025-01-21T09:38:33","slug":"carmello-musarella-if-people-receive-environmental-education-during-primary-and-secondary-school-an-understanding-of-nature-sinks-in-it-sticks-with-themfor-life","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/espores.org\/en\/interviews\/carmello-musarella-if-people-receive-environmental-education-during-primary-and-secondary-school-an-understanding-of-nature-sinks-in-it-sticks-with-themfor-life\/","title":{"rendered":"Carmelo Maria Musarella: \u201cIf people receive environmental education during primary and secondary school, an understanding of nature sinks in, it sticks with themfor life\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

Tell us what you\u2019re doing in Valencia<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019vecome through an exchange within the Erasmus programme, an Erasmus foruniversity staff. There are two kinds:teaching<\/em>, for giving classes, and training<\/em>, for improving work techniques. I\u2019m doing the latter, and I chose July because I don\u2019t have classes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But this is not your first time at our Jard\u00ed. It\u2019s been 20 years since your experience here. What memories do you keep from that time?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

Saying it was lovely is an understatement. I worked for a year, collaborating with a lot of people, almost everyone here, many of which are still my friends. For example, Olga Ib\u00e1\u00f1ez and Maria Jos\u00e9 Carrau. I started my work with them in the didactics office and this was very important because they helped me from the beginning to fit into the Botanical Garden, getting to know more and more people and their work every day, and to learn the language.I came when I finished the degree, through the former director Manuel Costa, to learn everything there was to know about plant biology, and there was no better way than an immersion in the Jard\u00ed. Although this wasn\u2019t new for me because I grew,academically speaking, in the Botanic Garden of Messina. Here, I kept up with tasks I had previously done, in areas like the herbarium or teaching, andworked on new ones, such as the seed bank. My experience here helped me start the PhD, since I had a rather theoretical perspectivebefore and it was a year of practical experience. It became the first step in my university path.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Messina Botanical Garden<\/a><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

You said you\u2019re still attached to our Jard\u00ed through some people. Who do you keep in touch with?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

I keep many friends. Workwise I\u2019ve contacted Jes\u00fas Riera, the herbarium curator,many times when I needed to consult or exchangespecimens. I\u2019ve also visited in person the herbarium a few times and we went on field trips. A spirit of friendship and cooperation remained since 2003, when I left. And though it\u2019s been a long time\u2014no less than 20 years\u2014it seems like yesterday, like I\u2019ve only taken a vacation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But you haven\u2019t been on vacation all this time, far from it. Explain your field of research<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

My primary field of research is flora and vegetation\u2014in fact, I had already done vegetation inventories with Pilar Soriano in Valencia. In Italy, I was granted a PhD scholarship onphytogeographyin Catania, and I still hold that interest, because I\u2019ve conducted habitat studies thanks to this knowledge. Every six years, as a Mediterranea university in Reggio Calabria, we monitor the Natura 2000 habitats, and understanding flora and vegetation is key for such studies. Regarding the study of flora, we have two lines of work: native and exotic flora; for instance, in the native line we try to evaluate the level of conservation of some endemic species of our region, south Calabria, and how they\u2019re facing climate change.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

What about exotic flora?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

We are particularly interested in invasive flora, which is of the utmostconcerntothe EU and local governments, given that it threatens not only local flora, but also animals because it disrupts habitats. People are unaware of this, since they don\u2019t see an immediate damage. In this case, the effects develop over time, and the scientificcommunity must properly advise governments.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You\u2019re also working on an urban forestry project<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

Yes, we\u2019ve collaborated with the metropolitan city of Reggio di Calabria. The AGRARIA department where I work and the group in charge of forestry and environmental sciencesare advisors in the urban forestry plans. They were funded at first by the Italian government, and lately the EU is funding treeplanting in Italian metropolitan cities. Every city council informs usabout which areas can be afforested,and then we advise them, planandsometimes draw the models that might be applied, depending on the local conditions regardingclimate, soil, exposition and so on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

And how does the result of the afforestationlook? Does it seem unnatural?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s not a forest in the classic sense, but rather native plants, trees and bushes, laid out avoiding consecutive rows of the same species and age, that will develop a long-term natural form. Thus, 10 or 20 year later, I can look at the result and wonder: is this natural or planted? We use the term \u201cnaturaliforme<\/em>\u201d, which means the final resultmust make people feel like it\u2019s spontaneous. Our team consists of a botanist, a hydraulic engineer, a forestry engineer and a silviculturist, each one with different competences, assisting those who design the final project.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You\u2019ve also mentioned that you work on the ethnobotanic part, recovering the nomenclature of plants in minority languages<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

We\u2019re talking about the use of plants in local communities and their value for different peoples.No one goes to the countryside to get medicine or food anymore, for different reasons, because they don\u2019t know the plants or because they don\u2019t have time for it. All this knowledge is being lost. We specifically research an area of special interest in our region, the Grecanica area, where they still speak a rare language\u2014meaning it\u2019s only spoken there\u2014which is a blend of ancient Greek and local language. Very few still speak Calabrian Greek, and just as many know how to name plants in this language, not even in Italian.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

And what\u2019s this project about?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

We try to preserve this knowledge, and we collect it by interviewing people. Conservation biology plays a role here because we found out that some of these species are endemic. For that reason, we need to consider if people still harness it as a resource. If they don\u2019t, we try to preserve any knowledge left about it, and if they do, since some plants are threatened with extinction, we consider an approach that supports the development of thelocal economy. We research which plants arebeing used, how much and to what end.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This means thatthe project ends up having a direct practical application<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

Of course, the same company that\u2019s helping us now voluntarily could be the pilot company that cultivates and distributes the plant, getting resources for its own benefit and for the benefit of the people working in it, the locals.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You work with many different people, how important are interdisciplinary groups in your work?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

They\u2019re indispensable. Not only because Italian law supports and funds projects of this kind, but also because it would be an impossible task for me, for example, a \u201cmere\u201d botanist. Though I may know the relationships between plants in different habitats, I don\u2019t know how to plant them, that\u2019s not my job. I know their state in nature, but not how to take care of them, grow them or control the soil. That\u2019s why everyone, in their competences, has a part to play.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

So you can no longer imagine a team without all of these contributions<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019ve never agreed when other professionals did it all by themselves, I\u2019m sorry but I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the way to go. If you are, for instance, a project supervisor, you can\u2019t tell me which plants we must grow; you might know what someone from a garden centre told you, but that has nothing to do with an urban reforestation project. You could even compromise projects like building a square, because imagine you plant exotic grasses from the southern hemisphere, that bloom twice a year here and multiply their allergenic effect. People would then have allergies not only in spring, but also in autumn.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do you think it\u2019s hard for common people to understand the application of botany outside of fields like, for example, agriculture and medicine?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s quite difficult for older people, it should be explained from an early age. This is crucial and I\u2019m very sureabout that because I\u2019ve also worked in education,so I know that\u2019s the only way for people to understand how important plants are. I was a teaching instructor in the Botanical Garden of Messina,and kids picked it up right away. When you\u2019re an adult, you don\u2019t learn something just because I tell you so, you can view things from a different perspective than mine, and it doesn\u2019t mean I possess the truth, but, from an environmental standpoint, I have a say.  If people receive environmental education during primary and secondary school, an understanding of nature sinks in, it sticks with them for life. We\u2019re not all going to become botanists, but we must have the foundation to say: yes, I understand what you\u2019re explaining.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Following the thread of education, you work at a university and this is a university botanical garden. Do you think universities, at least in your country, build enough bridgeswith society? Do you feel they\u2019re in touch with the reality around them?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

In my field, which is highly applied, it\u2019s easier for me to connect with people from cities and villages; thisscenario has nothing to do with a scientist who spends all day in the lab with DNA. In my experience, I must say my university is pretty mindful about this, and we have an advantage: we are a small university inside the city, so it\u2019s easier for us to be close to it. We have many connections with schools as well. I believe universities should follow this path, we call it the \u201cthird mission\u201d. Our missions are: research, teaching and, thirdly, spreading the knowledge we produce. This is a major pillar for us, our rector, Prof. Giuseppe Zimbalatti is permanently asking us to pay attention to the city and our surroundings. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Speaking of cities, we\u2019ve talked about your tree-planting project and you know Valencia is this year\u2019s European Green Capital. Which steps are cities taking towards mitigating the effects of the climate emergency, and where do they seem stuck?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

Precisely because of the urban forestry project I see that, in general, cities care more about renovating apartments to make them energy efficient or installing solar panels. I think that\u2019s great, but that shouldn\u2019t be all. I believe trees are important, and that\u2019s one of the reasons why the EU has considered it is urgent to plant them in cities. Italian metropolitan cities are working on it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

On the other hand, it\u2019s scary how some voluntary actions, though well-intentioned, might end up being dangerous. For instance, you can\u2019t plant trees wherever,nor any kind of tree you like. Or those who want to throw seed bombs shouldn\u2019tdo it because, even though they are beautiful plants with flowers, that\u2019sfixing something\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

While unfixing another<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

Exactly. That entails a huge expense of money, which doesn\u2019t help. They need someone to advise them. Do you want to throw seed bombs? Fine, we\u2019ll let you, but we\u2019ll tell you which seeds and where. There\u2019s a sentence we always say in our work team: the right tree in the right place; and I always add a third part: at the right time. In short, I\u2019m glad these actions exist because they come from thelove for the environment, from awareness, but that doesn\u2019t mean they\u2019ll always be helpful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Tell me about the term \u201cdegrowth\u201d, which isalready prominent in the environmental debate. What do you think about this concept? It used to be seen in a negative light, but it\u2019s currentlytaking on new nuances that make it less scary and allow us to reverse already established processes<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

I haven\u2019t heard much of it, at least in Italy, but the word says it all. While you were talking, I was imagining a child growing onlyin height. Is that growth? I believe there must be a balanced growth. There\u2019s a saying in Latin, in medio stat virtus<\/em>. The way I understand it,there are moments for progressivism, and moments for conservatism. Depending on the time period, people, place, social reasons, different choices have to be made.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We live in an era where no one has time, even less for environmental philosophy, and when we need to talk about a very serious and concerning issue like this,we have plenty to discuss, and we have toget it right. The most helpful people are those who are the most knowledgeable. Degrowth must be balanced. How? That would be a different interview and I\u2019m not sure I\u2019m the right person to talk about this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

You\u2019ve already given it a lot of thought!<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

If I had to bring out a quick thought it would be that, if everyone did their bit, did it well, and didn\u2019t take more than what they need, we wouldn\u2019t have to worry about this, for sure. Balance and honesty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You have two kids. How do you explain to them what\u2019s going on with the environment? How do you bring that up at home?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

Theory is easy. Practice doesn\u2019t work as well sometimes. I like the Spanish verb \u201cense\u00f1ar\u201d, <\/em>which has two different translations: \u201cto teach\u201d (\u201cinsegnare\u201d<\/em>in Italian) and also\u201cto show\u201d (\u201ctifacciovedere\u201d<\/em>). It\u2019s a beautiful verb because, in order to teach<\/em> you, I have to show<\/em> you, I like both meanings or senses. For instance, I wasn\u2019t sure if we should teach kids about waste disposal, perhaps they wouldn\u2019t understand it. In the end, I never explained anything, they saw how I did it. I\u2019m telling you this because sometimes\u2014almost every time\u2014 with kids, especially the younger ones, you shouldn\u2019t act too much as a teacher, but rather \u201cense\u00f1ar\u201d<\/em> in the \u201cteach-show\u201d double meaning that I mentioned, without worrying about them learning too slowly or not learning at all, because every child has their learning time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We would call that \u201cpractice what you preach\u201d<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

I feel the mostuseful word here is coherence. If you\u2019re coherent with the few things you tell them, rather than saying this<\/em> or that<\/em> is better, make them see it, hear it, and if you\u2019re coherent, you needn\u2019t do anything else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

What advice would you give to someone who would like to pursue a career in botany? In your experience, do you think it\u2019s worth it to aim their futurein that direction?<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019d tell them my story, not because they should follow my steps, but as a piece of advice. I liked biology in high school, especially zoology, but it was also a time wheremuch was talked about the environment, the ongoing crisis, that everything was wrong, so I considered in which career I could help the environment, not only enjoy it. I chose biology. Everything started out in quite general terms, and then,back in the dayin Italy,we had to choose which direction to take during the fourth year. I had already fallen in love with botany.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What I\u2019d ask any youngster is if they really like it. It\u2019s like a girlfriend, in a way. (He smiles)<\/strong> Do you like her because she\u2019s pretty or because while you\u2019re eating you can\u2019t stop thinking about her? If you\u2019re eating and all you can think about is going for a walk in the countryside, that\u2019s a sign that you like nature enough, so you should do what you like, even if they tell you there won\u2019t be many job opportunities. People used to ask me what I was supposed to do as a biologist. Clinical analysis? Better to become an engineer. I don\u2019t know anyunemployed engineer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

That\u2019s true!<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

But I just don\u2019t like it, and if I work in something I dislike, I don\u2019t think I\u2019ll do a very good job. I don\u2019t know if I did the right thing. Perhaps, if I had been an engineer, I would\u2019ve finished the degree at 25, I would\u2019ve been working and would\u2019vehad a tenure for who knows how long. But I did what I liked, and I think I\u2019m doing a good job. At least no one tells me I\u2019m doing a bad job, so that\u2019s something. If you choose what you want to do, you\u2019ll do fine. And though there will becrisis, like in every aspect of your life, you\u2019ll keep at it because you enjoy it, and that\u2019llmake you growbit by bit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

In short, you didn\u2019t become an engineer<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

No, eventually I didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What\u2019s your favourite Botanic Garden? You can\u2019t pickthis one<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

Not counting this one?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This one doesn\u2019t count<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

I have a great fondness for gardens, I grew up in them. The first one is the Botanic Garden of Messina, I studied there during the undergraduate degree and later worked there as an instructor. I keep in touch with the head gardener, and the workers that once were my teachers are now my colleagues. It\u2019s my first botanical home. And the second one I\u2019ve worked on\u2014well, the third one after Valencia\u2014is the Botanic Garden of Catania, which was the base of my study and work for my PhD on the flora and vegetation of Greece.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Cat\u00e0nia Botanical Garden<\/a><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Let\u2019s conclude with a natural space you would like to visit but haven\u2019t been to yet<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

A place I almost got to visitas part of an international project is the Amazon. It\u2019s a place that, while completely real, is mythical, and I think anyone who works in nature would like to see that paradise so intense in biodiversity. One cannot imagine. Taking the density of living beings per square metre, I\u2019d have to be there in order to study or even understand it. That would be the place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Well, then. That\u2019d be 52 minutes of interview!<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

I talk a lot, right? I talk too much!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Not at all! It\u2019s been a pleasure<\/strong><\/h2>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Tell us what you\u2019re doing in Valencia I\u2019vecome through an exchange within the Erasmus programme, an Erasmus foruniversity staff. There are two kinds:teaching, for giving classes, and training, for improving work techniques. I\u2019m doing the latter, and I chose July because I don\u2019t have classes. But this is not your first time at our Jard\u00ed. 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